U Rwanda ruritegura kwakira abagororwa bazava Arusha baje gufungirwa muri gereza zo mu Rwnda, aho imyiteguro igeze ndetse n’ibindi bibazo birebana n’umutekano w’igihugu muri rusange n’imikorere y’amashyaka ya Politiki mu Rwanda, twabiganiriyeho na minisitiri w’umutekano mu gihugu, Sheikh Mussa Fadhil Harelimana. Ni mu Kiganiro yagiranye n’Ijwi ry’Amerika ku wa 2 Gashyantare 2007.
J.U : Minisiteri yanyu ni yo ishinzwe umutekano mu gihugu. Mwaduha ishusho y’umutekano uko wifashe muri rusange mu Rwanda muri iki gihe ?
M.F.H : Umutekano uhagaze neza mu gihugu cyacu, ni igihugu kiri ku isonga mu byerekeranye n’umutekano muri region, muri aka karere ka grand lac, urebye n’ibyaha bigenda bibaho bigenda birushaho no kugabanuka cyane ; cyane cyane unarebye n’igihugu kimaze imyaka 12 hafi 13 kivuye mu ntambara no muri genocide yamaze abantu barenga miliyoni imwe, kuba uyu munsi gifite umutekano mwiza biragaragaza y’uko hari igikorwa kugira ngo bigerweho.
Urebye umubare w’abantu bagize uruhare muri genocide, bagera ku bihumbi 800 inkiko gacaca zimaze kugaragaza, urebye imiryango yabo, urebye umubare w’abarokotse genocide bariho ubu, kuko hari n’abagiye bapfa nyuma ya genocide kubera ibikomere cyangwa izindi ndwara bagera hafi ku bihumbi 300, ukareba rero n‘igikorwa k’inkiko gacaca gituma abantu bagenda bagaragazwa, ibyo byose, abo bose ni abantu usanga bafite impungenge zakagombye gutuma haboneka umutekano mukeya.
Ariko wareba umubare w’ibyaha bijya kugera ku bihumbi 11 byabonetse mu mwaka ushize wa 2006, ukareba umubare w’ibyaha ibihumbi 12 bijya kugera hafi ku bihumbi 13 by’ibyaha byabonetse mu mwaka w’i 2005, ni ukuvuga ko ibyaha byagabanutse.
Kugabanuka kw’ibyo byaha rero ubundi ubirebye muri iyo mibare wagira ngo ni igihumbi gusa kiba cyagabanutse, ariko mu rwego rw’umutekano haba hagabanutse byinshi. Haba hagabanutse byinshi kubera y’uko umutekano iyo babara ibyaha, babara imibare gutyo ariko bakanareba umubare w’abaturage , kuko mu gihugu cyacu, usanga buri mwaka ubwiyongere bw’abaturage bwiyongeraho hafi 3 ku 100, ni ukuvuga ngo iyo habaye icyaha kimwe mu bantu 10, hakaba abantu 20 kigakomeza kuba kimwe cyangwa hakaba abantu 30 hakaba ibyaha 2, uba uvuga y’uko byagabanutse, mu gihe mu mibare biba bigaragaza y’uko byazamutse, kuko babikora bakoresheje ijanisha ry’abaturage.
Twe rero iwacu kubona ahubwo umubare w’abantu miliyoni 8 wiyongeraho ibihumbi 200, ibyaha aho kugira ngo bibe ibihumbi 13 na 15, bikamanuka bikaba ibihumbi 11 , ubwo biba bigaragara y’uko haba hakoreshejwe imbaraga nyinshi zo kugabanya ibyaha. Duhagaze rero neza mu rwego rwo gukumira ibyaha ndetse no mu rwego rwo gutahura ababikoze.
J.U : Mumaze kutubwira ko umutekano wifashe neza muri rusange, mu minsi yashize ko hari ikibazo cy’umutekano w’abacitse ku icumu rya genocide n’abatangabuhamya muri gacaca ndetse n’ubundi bugizi bwa nabi bwagiye bugaragara hirya no hino mu gihugu bwagiye bukorerwa abantu batandukanye, murateganya iki ngo umutekano wabo utazongera guhungabana ?
M.F.H : Nibyo umutekano wagiye uhungabana, kuko n’iyo tuvuze uriya mubare twababwiraga w’ibyaha ibihumbi 11, muri rusange si ukuvuga y’uko atari ibyaha ; ni ibyaha biba byakozwe, ndetse mu mwaka ushize wa 2006 habayeho ibyaha byakorewe abacitse ku icumu n’abatangabuhamya bigeze kuri 210 ; mu mwaka w’i 2005 hari habayeho ibyaha byabakorewe bigeze kuri 223, n’ubwo na byo byagabanutse.
Ubwo rero biriya ni ibyaha biba bishingiye ku ngengabitekerezo ya genocide, kuko ahantu habaye genocide nk’uko nababwiye nyuma y’imyaka 12 ntabwo wavuga ngo iyo ngengabitekerezo yarashize cyane cyane y’uko kwinjizwa mu mitima y’abantu yaninjijwemo mu gihe kirekire ; kuvuga ngo umunsi umwe byarangiye byaba ari ukwibeshya, abantu barakomeza bakarinda abantu, bakigisha abantu, ariko hakagira ugira gutya kuko yavuzwe muri gacaca akavuga ngo reka njye gusibanganya ibimenyetso, hakagira ugira gutya kuko yamenyereye kwica byamubayemo akarande mu rwego rwa psychology ye akumva y’uko kutica byaba ari ikibazo, akaba na none yagiye kwica.
Hari n’izindi cas duhura na zo ; usanga noneho umuntu ashobora kwica n’umunyamuryango we avuga ati igihe nicaga yarandebaga, n’ubwo atinya kumvuga ejo ashobora gusinda akamvuga , akagenda akamwica, ibyo byose iyo abantu inkiko ziri gukurikirana, hari abibeshya bakavuga bati reka dusibanganye ibimenyetso, reka na none n’ubundi uriya nasize na we mwice n’ubundi nanjye bazanyica kubera ko icyaha kizampama byanze bikunze.
Ibyo byose turagenda turushaho kubikumira, ariko hakaba abatunyura mu myanya y’intoki bagakora ibintu nk’ibyo ng’ibyo, bakatunyura mu rihumye, ariko twafashe ingamba k’uburyo uyu mwaka turi kubona y’uko biri kugenda bigabanuka.
Ingamba twafashe ni uko ahantu habonetse icyo kibazo twavuze, y’uko tuzajya dukora investigation abaturanyi batabajwe bari mu maboko ya polisi, abakekwaho icyaha bari mu maboko ya polisi, abagombaga kurara irondo tukabona ntibari bariraye tukibaza duti kuki batari bariraye, aho nta kibazo bazi, na bo bakajya mu maboko ya polisi, ubuyobozi bw’umudugudu w’aho ng’aho na bwo bwagombaga gutegura rya rondo na bo bakaba batariteguye tukabakeka.
Ibyo byatumye, bigaragaza y’uko uyu mwaka kuva tariki ya mbere kugeza ejo bundi tariki ya 30 Mutarama 2007, raporo twari dufite ni cas imwe gusa yari imaze kuboneka, bigaragara y’uko hari umusaruro biri gutanga.
J.U : Yabonetse he ?
M.F.H :Yabonetse mu Karere ka Kamonyi ; hari inyangamugayo y’inkiko gacaca yari yakubitiwe mu kabari, ariko izizwa ako kazi k’ubunyangamugayo, itazizwa ikindi.
J.U : Mu minsi yashize havugwaga ko mwari mwagiranye amakimbirane na gacaca y’umurenge wa Biryogo. Byari byaturutse kuki , ese ubu ayo makimbirane yarahosheje ?
M.F.H : Umenya harimo ibice 2 ; nta makimbirane ubwayo yabonetse, ubwayo ntayo, ariko umenya hari abantu bifuzaga gukongeza umuriro, bawukongeze bakurikije icyo ari cyo cyose babona cyawatsa, cyaba ari ukuri cyaba ari kinyoma. Ubworero, bitewe n’uko si na yo yonyine, no hirya handi mu gihugu iyo bigaragaye y’uko hari ikintu cyahungabanya umutekano tukiganiraho n’izindi nzego zibishinzwe kugira ngo barebe uko bagicyemura.
Hari havuzweyo ibintu byo gufunga abantu badashishoje neza, noneho dukoresha inama yo kugira ngo barebe ukuntu babikosora, cyane cyane ko inkiko gacaca urabona ni inkiko ni innovation y’u Rwanda, iyo rero habayemo amakosa ntabwo wavuga ngo wajya kuvanaho inyangamugayo, ahubwo wazikosora ukanazigisha kuko bahora bagenda bigira mu kazi kabo, nta yandi mashuri bafite yo kuvuga ngo baca imanza gute, iyo rero ayo mashuri yabo bagenda babona experience bashingiye k’urubanza rwa mbere, urwa kabiri, urwa gatatu, iyo habonetse ikosa rirakosorwa kandi bagakomeza bagakora neza.
Ubwo rero icyo kibazo cy’amakosa yari yagaragaye no kuyakosora cyazanye ikibazo cyo kutumvikana hagati y’abantu bamwe bavuga bati kuki noneho abantu bafungwa bagafungurwa, ariko byaje kugaragara y’uko hari bamwe bari bafungiwe ukuri ko hari n’abandi bari bafunzwe kubera kutumva neza amategeko, ubwo rero urwego rubishinzwe rurabikosora, abantu bageze ku icumi barafungurwa , ubwo ababashinjije ibyaha cyangwa ababakatiye ibyo bihano ntabwo bari bishimye ; batishimye rero bagombaga gucana umuriro ; nza kumva batangiye no kunyataka, njye ubwanjye, mu izina ryanjye, ariko na bwo sinziko ari bo , sinzi ko ari bo kuko nta rubanza ngira muri gacaca, sinzi ko ari n’urwo nagira kuko sinari ndi no mu gihugu ; ibyo nkeka y’uko byaje gukosoka kuko byaje kumenyekana, nka gacaca ubwayo nziko nta kibazo twagiranye ariko hari abantu umenya bashatse kubyuririraho ngo bacane umuriro bashingiye ku cyo ari cyo cyose batoraguye.
J.U : Amagereza ari mu nshingano zanyu, mugeze he mwitegura kwakira imfungwa zizava Arusha zije gufungirwa mu Rwanda ?
M.F.H : Duhagaze neza, hari gereza ya Mpanga ihari, ifite ububasha bwo kwakira abantu 7500, ubu irimo abantu bagera ku bihumbi 4, kandi Arusha nta bantu bagera ku bihumbi 3 bariyo, ubwo rero abo bazaduha bose n’abandi bazaturuka hirya no hino ku isi kuko hari ibihugu bishaka kuduha imfungwa umwanya urahari, cyane cyane ko iriya gereza yubatswe neza, ndetse yanubatswe ku nkunga y’Abanyabulaya bifuza ko tubafunga neza kurushaho, ni igihugu cy’u Buholandi cyadufashije, baje no kuhasura kugira ngo barebe y’uko yujuje normes internationales zo kuba twahafungira, baranyurwa, nkeka y’uko nta kibazo gihari.
J.U : Mutubwiye ko hari bihugu bizabaha abafungwa, ibyo bihugu ni ibihe ?
M.F.H : Ni ibihugu byinshi by’i Buraya, ubu hari imishyikirano ihari hirya no hino , ndumva buriya nirangira ni bwo tuzabivuga kuko none aha itararangira, ntabwo twabivuga .
J.U : Amakuru atugeraho aremeza ko ubu za gereza zo mu Rwanda zugarijwe n’ikibazo cy’inzara, mwabitubwiraho iki ?
M.F.H : Eeeh, ikibazo… ubundi gereza zitungwa na Leta, zitungwa na Leta kandi amafaranga Leta yazigeneye ntabwo twavuga y’uko ari makeya, ariko bitewe n’uko muri uyu mwaka , uyu mwaka utangira muri bugdet ya Leta, hateganywaga abagororwa nibura ibihumbi 70, za gacaca ubu ukuntu zaje gukora, cyane cyane ko ari inkiko nyinshi kandi zikora vuba, zikora buri cyumweru, zirakora kandi hakaboneka abafungurwa n’abafungwa, icyo cyatumye hari umubare w’abagororwa biyongera batari barabaye « bugdetises », batari baragenewe za budget, ariko bitewe n’uko na none hari abafunguwe na none na za gacaca n’umubare ariko ukagenda wiyongera, byatumaga bigaragara y’uko hari za gerageza zimwe na zimwe zagiyemo abagororwa benshi batari barabiteganyije, bikagenda bikemurwa rimwe na rimwe n’ibihingwa abagororwa bagiye bahinga kuko byo biba bitari budgetise muri bugdet national , bikagenda bibafasha gutuma icyo cyuho kigabanuka. Ntawavuga y’uko byakigabanije 100 ku 100 , ariko ntabwo twavuga y’uko hari inzara inuma mu magereza kuko twabonye uko tubyifatamo, turagerageza.
J.U : Ko batubwira ko umubare w’abagororwa nibura 10 bapfa ku munsi muri gereza Nkuru ya Kigali bazize inzara ?
M.F.H : Ababibabwira umenya babirota kuko gereza ubwayo iri hafi, mushatse mwanayisura, icyo kibazo ntabwo nkizi, na directeur arahari, nkeka y’uko twabasabira uburenganzira mukajya kubonana na we ; wenda ababibabwira ikibazo ni uko batababwira n’amazina n’ibitaro bapfiriyemo (araseka cyane).
U.J : Batubwira ko bicwa n’inzara bitewe n’uko CICR nta mfashanyo ikigenera za gereza
M.F.H : Ibyo bya CICR byo bimaze igihe, kandi na gereza ahubwo zigeze kugira ikibazo turanagicyemura. Ntabwo iya Kigali yari irimo ; ni gereza ya Butare twaranagicyemuye, ubwo rero kuvuga iya Kigali ndumva ari abantu bari kuraguza imitwe bashakisha, ni amakuru atari yo ; ariko na mwe ni na hafi, mwanyarukirayo mukabaza.
U.J : Gereza ya Butare yagize icyo kibazo cy’inzara ryari ?
M.F.H : Yakigize umwaka ushize wa 2006, hagati y’ukwezi kwa 10 n’ukwezi kwa 11, ni bwo cyabayeho. Urabona ni gereza ishinzwe ahantu hanini, noneho hirya no hino gacaca zitangiye mu kwezi kwa karindwi bagenda babasha kumaitrisa [maitriser], ariko bigeze mu kwa 10 budget itangiye kurangira -urabona umwaka uba ugiye kurangira -, batangira kuremererwa, batangiye kuremererwa tureba amagereza hirya no hino afite ibyo bahinze bihagije, turababwira ngo bagabanyirize hariya mubashyire , dufata na za moringa zari za Gitarama na zo turazimanura, ikibazo gisubira mu murongo. Ubwo rero abavuga ibya Kigali wenda ni byo bifuza ariko siko biri.
U.J : Niba ntibeshye muri Guverinoma muhagariye ishyaka rya PDI, mubona mute imikorere y’amashyaka ya Politiki mu Rwanda, ko abakurikirana Politiki yo mu Rwanda bavuga ko FPR yamize andi mashyaka ?
M.F.H : Sinzi ko yagira uwo munwa wo kumira andi mashyaka (araseka cyane), cyane cyane ko itegeko ridashobora kubibemerera, ariko urebye n’ubuyobozi bwabo bwiza bafite, kuba barafashe igihugu nta rindi shyaka ribafashije, bari bafite ububasha bwo kukiyobora ari bonyine, ntawabwiye ngo nimuze dufatanye, nitudafatanya biragenda bitya. Bari bamaze gutsinda urugamba rw’intambara no guhagarika genocide, kuba baravuze bati nimuze dufatanye, ntabwo bari bavuze bati nimuze dufatanye kugira ngo tubamire kuko no kuyobora bonyine bari babishoboye. Ni ukuvuga ko bashakaga ubwisanzure n’ibitekerezo bitandukanye.
Ubwo rero ibyo ng’ibyo ni abantu baba babyivugira ubwabyo, cyane cyane y’uko nkanjye ndi umuyobozi w’ishyaka rya PDI, ni njyewe urikuriye, kandi ntabwo turicara na rimwe twumve ngo FPR idutumye iki ng’iki, cyangwa se ngo tubujijwe kuvuga iki ng’iki, ni uburenganzira bwacu bwo kuvuga, ni uburenganzira bwacu bwo kureba uko bigenda , kandi njye, ku bwanjye no ku bagize ishyaka ryanjye, twemera y’uko FPR iyobora neza ikoresheje neza umwanya yatorewe n’abaturage.